Simon: Okay, here we are today with, uh, Cyrielle, Hannah and Emma. And we're going to
talk about a recent presentation from a guest lecturer with a new development at Hafjell,
which is a large ski area near where we are located in Lillehammer, here in Norway.
Yesterday, a lady called Annette, uh, consult, um, from Eisenhardt uh, Investment
Company gave us a presentation about this exciting new large hotel and destination
development that will be situated on the south side of Hafjell ski area. Presently, this area
is also known as Gaiastova. What we know about the location is that Hafjell is owned by
Alpine Co. Uh, an owner has a conglomeration of different ski areas, including Kvitfjell,
and they recently acquired Oppdal further north towards Trondheim. They are looking to
grow their market sector, which is principally at the moment, Nordic customers as well as
people from within Norway. However, one of the weaknesses they have is that having a
hotel accommodation on the mountain for international guests is principally not a
significant offer in the destination. So, can you tell us a little bit about the location and
what you know of Hafjell from your experience?
Hannah: They have different services like, uh, food or restaurants and, um, you can rent
skis and apres ski.
Cyrielle: Uh, so the ski resort is a bit is, uh, quite big compared to some other resorts.
There is like a snow park, a gondola, some chairlifts. And they also have, like, quite a lot
of fun part. Like, we can, uh, take some pictures at the top of Hafjell 360, like, for free. And
I think it's a good thing to have some, um, memories with that.
Emma: Yeah. The only thing I will add to that is like in the weekends it can be quite busy,
which is maybe already quite a weakness thing to have. If you also want to build a hotel
like even bigger than there is now. And also, uh, because the Danish people go there with
like school trips and stuff. I'm wondering with this coming up, how it's going to be skiing
there when there are even more people and how the slopes are going to handle that. But
yeah, that's the only negative experience I had besides the things they said.
Simon: So, we can already see that, uh, from your own experience at Hafjell that on the
weekend is significantly busier than in the week. One of the principal trends in Norway is
that many destinations have second homes as a major development to allow the
landowner, of course, to make a return, but also it ensures that people keep coming back
to their cabin and using the destination. So, it's almost like a regular customer. And at
Hafjell, like many other destinations that are within a two-hour radius of Oslo and the area
around Oslo known as Viken, there people come from there on their easy transport
networks up to the mountains. And so, skiing from Friday afternoon all the way through to
Sunday, just after lunch, can be busy on the mountain. And Emma, you already alluded to
that the Danish school groups come in the last few weeks in quite large numbers to the
mountain. So, what did the development this faculty and development look like?
Hannah: I think they, um, want to build like 100 high end apartments on the top.
Cyrielle: And they want to build like a mini village with stores, grocery stores and, like,
spas, if I remember well, and bakeries.
Emma: All that kind of stuff like wellness and.
Simon: Yeah. So, the three pillars of the development are, a high-end hotel, high end
apartments that they will sell to recover some of the costs of investment and have an
activity and athletic centre.
Emma: Yeah. So also, fitness and everything you can also do in a normal village actually.
Simon: The interesting thing is that the name literally means flame town. So, they're trying
to build almost a village of activity where there's lots of different things going on. Uh, what
else was there going to offer there?
Emma: They also want to offer like experiences for adventure, like climbing in summer
and hiking, camping.
Hannah: They differ between soft adventures and hard adventures, and the soft
adventures are available for everybody, so you don't need to be that fit and skilled to do
that. Um, and the hard adventure, it's not for everybody, so you need to be more skilled
and fit to do that, like mountain climbing.
Simon: In the presentation, they tilted this a little bit in terms of who is this a really for? My
sense was they're going to offer a Nordic experience to non-Nordic people within the
cultural, uh, tradition in the Nordic countries as people go outside. And this is personified
by the phrase of you'd better enjoy out for a trip, um, whereby it doesn't matter about the
weather, but you just go outside. It's just part of the tradition; you go and do something.
Whether you go on your skis, you go hiking and picking berries, or you go on the high fuel
in the summer when the weather is sunny. My sense was that they were going to try to tilt
the soft adventure offer to to have a Nordic element to show people from a non-Nordic
background have Nordic people enjoy the outdoors, and it doesn't need to be anywhere
near a hard adventure experience with it.
Emma: They want to offer that in like a luxury way, so they're not going to do the typical
cultural thing, I think, because they wanted to do like luxury hiking and like more of a snow
scooter hike than go by just walking. So, I think they are just like twisting the cultural
activities too, like a more luxury way of making it more accessible. Maybe I got the feeling
that they were bringing it that way.
Simon: It's like a refinement of the experience.
Emma: Yeah.
Simon: So, it would tilt towards high end. And then within that there was a shout out for
local partners. So, in many ways they were not going to provide the activities themselves.
They were looking for local entrepreneurs or activity providers or people that develop or
have an attraction to come in and offer a refined product for their high-end guests.
Emma: I think it's a good thing they want to work with local partners, but maybe if they
want to be unique in their hotel branch, they need to add something next to the local
partners to outshine themselves in the market. So maybe they also need to look at
activities they can set up there themselves.
Simon: I get the feeling they don't want to take the risk. Yeah, that's the thing. They don't
know the local area.
Emma: Yeah.
Simon: They don't want to take the risk.
Emma: I think it's sad that they don't have an additional thing that it's not here yet, like hot
air balloon rides. Yeah. Something else that you don't have here that may just go from the
hotel. So, they have something like high end that is not done on a daily basis. Mhm. But I
don't know if you've like other activities that they maybe could do, or other locations do.
Hannah: I think other locations are lots of like ziplining or some water sports, but zip lines
can be possible. Yeah. In the mountains. Yeah. It's also quite adventurous.
Emma: Yeah. Did you have anything from your location in France?
Cyrielle: Um, yeah, I know one, um, ski resort: Flaine in the in the Alps. Like maybe five
years ago, they were just in the winter sports, and now they expand their activities into
summer because, uh, you maybe know that in France, like, the snow is really, you don't
know when it's going to be some snow. It will be like in November until March. So, yeah,
they, um, add a new project to their resort. I know that they offer summer pass with, like,
it can give you free access to other 35 sporting and cultural activities and it's like really
new like for as I said, five years. And I think it's a good example of, uh, four season, um,
resort because they extend their projects with the summer uh, things with like trail,
mountain biking, climbing, via ferrata, golf, guides for walks and hiking. And there is, uh,
also like cultural experiences with um, museum, classical music or spa.
Emma: But is it like the same pest you get in winter time?
Cyrielle: No, that's, um, that's a pass less expensive pass because they don't attract a lot
of people in summer yet. So that's why the pass is like quite inexpensive compared to the
summer one. Uh, and because the summer one, like for one day you can ski for €60, which
is for one day. And I think, uh, for the summer pass, it's €60 for maybe one month. So that's
why it's, uh, like the same price.
Hannah: Yeah. I think another example is, uh, Whistler. It's, uh, also a four-season
destination in Canada. And they also offer, um, in winter, like skiing, ziplining, ice skating,
dog sledding, and also some indoor activities. And in the summer also like golf, cycling,
hiking, beer watching, tours, water sports.
Simon: I certainly Whistler has a reputation of being a significantly successful four-season
destination. Their summer market in terms of turnover is bigger than their winter market
now. Whistler, they started is two different mountains, Blackcomb and Whistler, two
different companies that competed against each other. And slowly, uh, a large
conglomerate Canadian Culinary called interest came and bought out the mountain that
kind of joined the mountains together. And then they slowly looked at, uh, summer market
offer. It's a growing trend with many destinations to become a four-season, year-round
destination. Part of this is to try to get a return on investment, rather than just relying on a
winter market for income. And equally, if you have all though, that staff and resources in
place, It is strategically better if you can have people come year round and then you don't
have a high staff turnover, a seasonal staff. Now you could argue that, of course, in the
winter you may need more people who have some expertise on winter sport, but equally
it's about keeping the place busy and the investors hoping to see that they get a year-round
return for what they are doing. For this particular destination, with Farkle being its location
is kind of a way from the hub of the summer activities where they have downhill mountain
biking, which is more on the north side of the resort. There are no bike trails that go to, uh.
Gaiastova from the Hafjell Bike Park, which is the Alpine Coast summer. It is quite niche
downhill mountain biking in terms of I would in that typology of adventure is tilting more
towards hard adventure, and I would wonder whether the location of Fakkelbyen would
be at Gaiastova would be because it's a way from the the current biking scene would be
ensure its peace and quiet because it's not on the main road over the field either is off on
its side.
Emma: I'm also wondering if they're going to, like, work together with, uh, car rental
companies or they're going to drive their own buses, because either way, there's going to
be a lot of noise and transport around the hotel, which is ruining the peaceful environment
that people may come for because of the nature destination. But I don't think they worked
it out. I don't think they're sure themselves.
Simon: Well, the delivery is in 2030, so they have time.
Emma: Yeah.
Simon: To, um, address mobility issues.
Emma: But I think it's weird because you have, like, a plan of making a hotel at a specific
place and to keep the hotel there, if it's built, then you need to know how people come
there. So, for me, it's weird that they, like, don't think ahead of how people come there
before they are going to build it.
Cyrielle: Yeah, because if they want to attract international customers, they need to have
like transportation because international customers don't have cars. So, they need to
have buses or train or, uh, taxis to go there. So, I think yeah, they need to think about that.
Simon: I mean, the main transport network is of course, you would fly into Oslo
Gardermoen airport, and then in the basement you can take a train to Lillehammer, and
then there will be, uh, private transfer, or you would rent a car from Gardermoen and then
take that to the destination and then you can go onwards afterwards. I don't think with the
high-end customer they would be looking for bus transfer. Nonetheless it is a particular
discrete group or on a tour. Most of the time high end is small couples, small groups. And
one of the interesting markets they're looking to develop is this high end. And if you already
in the destination, there is a very good field hotel known as Palace Stover, who equally say
they are aiming for high end with their aiming to have a mission style restaurant on site.
So where does high end finish and do we manoeuvre into the luxury market? Now during
the presentation, there was, uh, growth expectation in the luxury market was coming in at
9% per annum, and then adventure tourism was up near 18%. So, this adventure, luxury
adventure was a phrase termed uh by um, and that's in the presentation. What does that
mean to you, luxury adventure?
Emma: I think it's a going outside, going to see new things, explore, uh, nature, for
example, but in an easier way. So, you don't have to work hard yourself. So not going on
foot, but like going on, um, snow scooter or, um, a gondola or something to see, uh,
instead of, like, really working out.
Hannah: Yeah. Maybe they have like a perfect plan. So, you don't need to plan that, uh,
tour, the hiking tour, or they do this theme.
Simon: I mean, the phrase she used was unique and authentic. So, something that is quite
different in it being unique and okay and authentic. It's not a contrived experience. We're
not off to Disneyland. You know, we're going to do something that perhaps people do in
that destination. You know, they have a tradition of it.
Emma: That's a bit of a contrast. In my eyes, I think because you want to do the cultural
things but also make it for the mess. So, either way, it's not going to be one of those. It's
going to be hard to give them like a real, authentic cultural thing if they have the need to
have some luxury or something in the cultural thing. So, because then you're going to ruin
the cultural activity.
Simon: As she talked about the packaging, how it's going to be packaged and put together.
And then, of course, the presentation of the offer to the client, even if they're high end. It's
about how they perceive what the experience is going to be like. So it might be, for
example, that at a certain point in the summer you were going to go on a hike and we're
going to go looking for Cloudberries. And equally where they're located, there is the lake
there around Silverton, and for sure there will be fish in the Arctic char, and people can go
and be guided for fishing for Arctic char. And this it might be a hike, you might be that you
get driven close to the lake, and you get in the boat and taken out and you may have this
kind of experience, and it might only be two people in the boat with the guide. For me, this
this is where the kind of offer is going to be, where they would leverage it towards nature
in a Nordic sentiment. Okay. Now what I've talked about is very small groups and they've
got a 100 bed hotel, so it's either going to be a hive of lots and lots of different activities,
or there's going to be needs to be something else that can take more people, or they can
go on their own, because within the high end, uh, there is these are motivated people.
Anything more? Do you wrote down anything we've missed?
Hannah: That the slopes are very flat.
Simon: Yeah.
Hannah: They're very flat. It's a problem.
Simon: I don't know. Yeah. No, it's a huge problem, I can tell you.
Emma: Yeah, yeah. It's the last time I was there, I just went up the baby hill to have, like a
bit of speed. But then I still need to.
Simon: See only the last one.
Emma: Yeah.
Simon: Yeah. So, we talk about alpine Co and the flatness of the area. And uh where we
can see that there's a weakness in the winter market for that. So, one thing that sprung to
mind for myself who been to Gaiastova is that the little area guys over on the ski resort is
quite flat to get to the to the actual slopes. And so, I questioned this yesterday and asked
whether how their partnership with Alpin Co is working. Will they build a lift from
Gaiastova up to Hafjell topping? And there has been talk about this in the past with um
my understanding when they built some warm bed apartments in Hillsetta and they had
hoped that those people and those apartments will be able to access the alpine resort
easier, rather than skating hundreds of metres on cross-country tracks that are relatively
flat to access the alpine resort. And often these destinations sell ski and ski out. So just
to wrap it up. Any final thoughts?
Cyrielle: Uh, for me, it's a good idea for them to create this, uh, village. Because, like this,
they will be, um, able to, uh, to attract people in summer. And, uh, as you said, they need
to maybe, uh, build a chairlift because, okay, for skier, it's annoying to skating, but for
snowboarder, that's worst. So yeah, they just need to do that. And, um, and maybe the
last thing I have to say is they just, yeah, need to, um, promote their, uh, village because,
uh, okay, it's for 2030, but we didn't see that anywhere, even if it's in five years. But, uh,
when something is big like this, even for five years, we can see already promotion about
that. For me, in France, when something is for five years, I will already see some, um,
promoting things about that. So, I think they just need to promote more.
Simon: Great, Hannah?
Hannah: I think in general, it's a good idea, but I think they need to think about more
aspects like the mobility, uh, or the lifts. Um, and also maybe they need to offer more
activities so they can do like the activities in smaller groups and not in a really big group.
Yeah.
Simon: And Emma?
Emma: I think it's a good idea to have like, a village where people don't need to transport
themselves to do some groceries or to go to a spa or something. But I think they need to
think about the promotion and how they want to be the unique hotel in Norway that
people need to come to, because there are like other places that has maybe way more
interesting nature, but they can be unique if they have like other activities that are not
quite common in Norway or not something that you do every day. Uh, like the paragliding
or hot air balloons or something, just in addition to it, to make it even uniquer. And I think
they can also promote it on like social media and get some feedback from that, so they
know what the audience wants. I think that's the most important thing.
Simon: Yeah, my sense is that their plan, their destination, but developing who their
market is, they're reaching out currently to tour operators and how they're going to work
with these people, um, to find their market. This is happening now, and it's pretty early in
the process. If you think that it's five years away until it's opened. Um, you know, so they
have time for this, definitely. The mobility we challenged Annette yesterday on that. And
of course they have time to solve that problem. You know, after all, it's two hours from
Oslo Airport. It's relatively easy to get to Lillehammer. And if you have a higher car, you can
drive up the up the mountain road. I mean, for myself, this is, uh, a big step change for
Hafjell as a destination. This is a serious year-round service and offer where people can
come and stay. And there will be attractions like the spa, like the small sports hall. There's
a nightclub there, and there's all kinds of stuff that you would find in the city, like a bowling,
cinema, or this is kind of in the basement there, but it's on the mountain. So, it's not only
for their principal customers who are staying in their accommodation, but it would be for
the people around in the second homes, as well as perhaps people coming from
Lillehammer or further to come there for an experience. What I did like was the reaching
out there’re looking for ideas for activities. The hotel on its own, as Anette said, won't be
enough, people need to have something to do to stay and these attractions and activities
need to be packaged in a particular way that it is both unique and authentic in terms of
what people are wishing and willing to do. And this will be interesting as they begin to
develop this portfolio and arguably will be whether their underpins their success or not.
After all, they're looking to invest a billion-krone Norwegian kroner. I mean, that's a lot of
money. To get that kind of return will take a long time. Mhm. And you need people to stay
not just for one night. Okay. So, thank you very much for your time and discussing the
Fakkelbyen project at Hafjell. And we should see what happens next with that as time
goes on.
Hannah: I'm curious.